As i already said, one point in storm armor is enough for stunning. U dont need to invest points if u only want control effect from crits. Just tell me, do u really believe there is any chance for wizard to tank barb in melee? And please, dont forget this thread after release.
You really think the only difference between a rank 1 storm armor and a rank 20 storm armor is going to be a little bit of damage? What if more ranks in storm armor increases its crit chance?
Oh snap, suddenly your argument falls apart completely.
I expect to have long forgotten this thread by the time the game comes out, but if I haven't I will be making pvp wizard build involving heavy investment in one of the armors to prove you wrong.|||Okay, we don't know much about D3, but I'm pretty confident that a caster won't equal a melee class in melee. Being balanced is one thing, but making sense is another.
PvP is competitive, and you want to focus where you excel. A wizard has melee capabilities, but not ones that compare to her casting, and the barb / monk are both better at their melee as a wizard is casting vs her melee.
Fun, gimmicky melee on a caster works in pvm where it's forgiving and whatever paced you want, but pvp is always goaled toward effectiveness, and this leaves the inadequate abilities aside. PvP is where you get serious.
In terms of here defensive abilities, that doesn't make a melee wizard playable. It means she can take some damage, not that she can dish it or sustain that defense for long. If you have someone with low life who can stun a person next to her one a second, or however the different armors work factoring stun / crit, you use it to get away. That's time bought to teleport, mirror image, or blast him if the opponent's life is low enough. It isn't to sit there and tank all day. Melee has to do that, and casters aren't built to do it.|||Quote:
Okay, we don't know much about D3, but I'm pretty confident that a caster won't equal a melee class in melee. Being balanced is one thing, but making sense is another.
PvP is competitive, and you want to focus where you excel. A wizard has melee capabilities, but not ones that compare to her casting, and the barb / monk are both better at their melee as a wizard is casting vs her melee.
Fun, gimmicky melee on a caster works in pvm where it's forgiving and whatever paced you want, but pvp is always goaled toward effectiveness, and this leaves the inadequate abilities aside. PvP is where you get serious.
In terms of here defensive abilities, that doesn't make a melee wizard playable. It means she can take some damage, not that she can dish it or sustain that defense for long. If you have someone with low life who can stun a person next to her one a second, or however the different armors work factoring stun / crit, you use it to get away. That's time bought to teleport, mirror image, or blast him if the opponent's life is low enough. It isn't to sit there and tank all day. Melee has to do that, and casters aren't built to do it.
Why are you equating a melee class with a tanking class?
There are no tanks in D3. Barbarians and Monks will not survive in pvp if they stand still and just tunnel vision someone. They will need to use their mobility skills to pick and choose their spots to jump in, deal their damage and get out before they get blown up. Go read the Barbarian section of Flux's 2010 arena report. If you play any class melee or otherwise as a tank, you will die, and you will die quickly.
I'm not saying melee sorcs are going to dominate arena, but don't talk as though monks and barbarians have some sort of increased health pool or melee damage reduction because from what we've seen so far, they don't. I don't expect any wizard to build for PURE melee for arena, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some hybrids who didn't mind swinging the sword a couple times here and there, ESPECIALLY now that magic damage and melee damage is lumped into the same stat.
edit: also keep in mind that Blizzard is designing an entire skill presumably around melee sorcs (magic weapon) and they have already confirmed that there will be melee weapons with caster stats (i.e. wizard skill damage %). I doubt they would go through all this effort to itemize and provide the skills/presumably traits for a spec that is completely worthless in pvp. Even if it's a niche spec on a few specially designed 3v3 teams, that is a far cry from "useless in pvp". Again, you are climbing aboard the Madmaxio's boat of assuming things will be a certain way while missing a substantial amount of important information. Will a melee wizard be able to go toe to toe with a melee opponent? Definitely not - only an idiotic wizard would try. Will a melee wizard be feasible in pvp? Remains to be seen.|||Why are you going on and on about a tank class I never said.
I said they can tank melee better. That doesn't mean that all they do is tank. One of the stipulations I placed was also the ability to dish out damage.
Nice try though.And what bit of info has led you to believe melee has the same Hp as everyone? Do you know how much HP they get upon each level up? Ho much each start off with? If you need evidence, just look to the pvp videos. The melee has 1K, the casters have 800. Quite a big difference that can mean a much bigger gap later in the game.
Dominating PvP was the exact question here. Like you said, they won't. Vs other casters, it's up in the air. Vs any melee, they get creamed.|||Quote:
Why are you going on and on about a tank class I never said.
I said they can tank melee better. That doesn't mean that all they do is tank. One of the stipulations I placed was also the ability to dish out damage.
Nice try though.And what bit of info has led you to believe melee has the same Hp as everyone? Do you know how much HP they get upon each level up? Ho much each start off with? If you need evidence, just look to the pvp videos. The melee has 1K, the casters have 800. Quite a big difference that can mean a much bigger gap later in the game.
Dominating PvP was the exact question here. Like you said, they won't. Vs other casters, it's up in the air. Vs any melee, they get creamed.
I was going to write up a thorough response until I saw your last statement. You have zero evidence to back that statement up. None. We have never seen any pvp videos with a melee wizard. We don't know what the ability magic weapon does. We don't know what the wizard armors do.
There is too much unknown and the game is not even in alpha, yet you have already made up your mind based on nothing. There is no point in arguing with people like you.|||What you guys fail to realize is that not seeing doesn't matter in the slightest bit.
Go on and write up how a caster will go toe to to indefinitely with a melee class. I look forward to seeing it.|||Wizard Build:
Magic Weapon (assuming it has something to do with melee damage - runed for frost damage if possible)
Frost armor
Ray of Frost
Diamond Skin
Frost nova
Mirror Image (runed so that my mirrors will melee attack... assuming i need to/rune exists)
Teleport
Only engage in melee with diamond skin, magic weapon, and mirror images up. Use teleport / frost nova / frost armor to get out of melee range and ray of frost to deal damage & kite while you're waiting for cooldowns to reset. Play smart. Save teleport to counter charge or leap, dodge ancient spear, save frost nova to counter sprint.
Focus on precision as much as possible to proc freeze with ray of frost / weapon with frost damage / frost armor. Everything I didn't mention should be runed for cooldown reduction. This melee wizard build would obliterate any melee class (hey you're assuming the negative, I'll assume the positive).
The great thing about fighting a melee class with this build is that there will be no need to chase. The melee player will have to run (aka limp) through a fully charged ray of frost to reach you assuming you counter all of his gap closers properly.
Go on and write up how a melee will go toe to toe indefinitely with this wizard build. I look forward to seeing it.|||You mean the melee that strike through chill, and the lack of knowledge on freeze in PvP?
Wizards go up against the melee they hit less and take more damage from? And they do indeed dominate them?
yeah okay.
Any barb with WW (or charge), and Monk with combos gets around this Wizard.|||Quote:
You mean the melee that strike through chill, and the lack of knowledge on freeze in PvP?
Wizards go up against the melee they hit less and take more damage from? And they do indeed dominate them?
yeah okay.
Any barb with WW (or charge), and Monk with combos gets around this Wizard.
Did you not read anything I wrote? Only engage in melee when diamond skin is up means wizard takes very little damage, and deals substantially more.
I already detailed the counter(s) in my build for charge, but you just ignored it. WW requires melee range, which we've already established won't be achieved except by specific conditions in which the wizard will have significant advantage (diamond skin & mirror image in case you're too lazy to look back 2 posts). And no, we have seen how ww works, and it will not be able to substantially damage all of the images, so the baba will have a 1 in 4+ guess at dealing max damage to the correct target, which is a substantial advantage to the wizard.
Combo monk counters this how exactly? You're just making stuff up now to avoid admitting you're completely wrong.|||Yeah, I did skim through it.
WW requires melee range, which will be achieved. A melee wizard has to get close to use melee. Just like any zealer and smiter, WW > melee. Charge will just run through and knock back. WW time.
The Monk dashes in (longer range than the wizard), invulnerability, and knockback. They even have a new form of OW to drain the wizard. Their combos are all packed full of debuffs, and we haven't even seen the runes yet. KB, slow, far more damage, out ranged and inability to be hit? Combo > wiz melee.
Melee wizards will be able to have a chance at the vulnerable casters, but they will indefinitely be thrashed by melee.
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